BehindTheNet.org killin ur penalties

NY/PA Korg Travel Follies (A Rainy Night at Big Shea) »« Attack of the Ghouls

Playing Both Sides


Yeah, so I’ve been conspicuously absent for a little over a week. Things have been busy, and this blog remains a hobby — a fun one, to be sure, but when things heat up, it’s one of the first things to get cut from the schedule. So it goes. But now I’m back, and taking the cheap route to a successful blog entry by ripping a topic off InstaPundit. So…

President Bush made a splash yesterday with a statement that marriage should be reserved for heterosexuals — brought up by, among other things, Canada’s complete legalization of gay marriage earlier this month. Noted gay conservative blogger Andrew Sullivan is, predictably, on the edge of hysteria. Glenn Reynolds of InstaPundit is unsure where this statement is leading, but doesn’t think the issue of a Constitutional amendment banning gay marriage is going to come to a head right now.

Reynolds has it almost right, I think, when he says “Most Americans, I think, are increasingly comfortable with gay people, but not as comfortable with the idea that gayness itself is truly acceptable. That’s changing, but the process is still underway.” Where he’s off the mark is his apparent non-recognition that a large number of people will never accept homosexuality as morally equivalent to heterosexuality.

The thing is, there’s a compromise that both sides are dancing around (no pun intended), and for which I think President Bush may be laying the groundwork.

It is possible to believe that homosexuality is wrong, but to still believe that homosexual people deserve protection under the law. The key word in this whole debate, I think, is marriage. Marriage has been defined for all of known human history, across nearly every recorded human culture, as between male and female. (Note that I left out any indication of numbers.) Trying to change that is, to put it mildly, a huge task.

I’ll fight against moral recognition of homosexuality. I played a key role in that battle in 1998 and 1999 at the Student Forum of the United Methodist Student Movement, when activist delegates brought forth proposals that the UMSM endorse gay marriage and ordination of gay pastors in the 2000 General Conference. The church should not endorse homosexuality any more or less than it endorses any other form of sin, and I’ll proudly hold that line. (The church’s business, though, is accepting the sinners that all of us are, and leading us to repent from our sins.)

But whether you believe homosexuality is right or wrong, it’s tough to deny that it’s a part of our society now. The Supreme Court’s decision striking down the Texas anti-sodomy law was overdue, simply because the government doesn’t belong in the business of regulating the private behavior of consenting adults, no matter who they are. Gay people deserve the equal protection that they are due as human beings and that the United States Constitution provides. Something is going to have to be done — if for no reason other than problems of joint ownership of property, probate of wills, etc. Perhaps Vermont-style civil unions are where the country as a whole is headed (and with that, the eventual recognition that the 1996 Defense of Marriage Act likely violates the “full faith and credit” clause of the Constitution).

It won’t make the promoters of moral equivalence happy (they won’t accept anything less than the word “marriage”), and the wanna-be theocrats of Jerry Falwell’s stripe will flip out (shoot, they already did so over the sodomy decision). But for a compromise like civil unions to gain partial acceptance from social/moral conservatives, it’s going to have to be endorsed by some of their own. President Bush almost certainly won’t go that far during his time in office (whether it ends in 2005 or 2009), but his comparatively mild statement yesterday could start the Republican party’s ball rolling in that direction.

31 July 2003 / 5 Comments / Tags: politics

Comments on “Playing Both Sides”

  1. Sorry Josh, but I just can’t leave this one alone. First off, I’m not sure if you meant to imply that homosexuality was a sin or not, so I’ll at least leave that alone.

    However, from my personal experience, both professional and socially, gay people should not be denied the right to be “legally” married. Since a church is a private organization, with its own rules and values, it is perfectly fine to not allow gay marriages. However, the United States has no basis for denying that two men/women be joined legally.

    The fact of the matter is, legal or not legal, moral or immoral, people form these relationships. And aside from anatomical differences, the dynamics of their relationship is no different from a heterosexual relationship. Further, the US and its laws should be free from any moral values held by any percentage of its people less than 100%. One man’s sin, is another’s life-altering relationship. The decision to accept or not to accept gay unions is a personal decision, not a goverment’s position. And unlike abortion, another popular “personal choice” argument, a gay union effects only individuals being married.

    The fact is, these relationships exist, regardless of any legal precedent.

    capt.taco on July 31st, 2003 at 5:20 pm
  2. I knew this one was gonna be controversial. :) I’m actually surprised it lasted almost 4.5 hours w/o comments.

    Yes, I am implying that I believe homosexuality is a sin. As a matter of fact, I’ll state it: I believe homosexuality is a sin. That’s not really my main point of discussion in this article, though.

    What I’m essentially calling for here is a definition of marriage as between a man and a woman — and for something essentially equivalent to be granted to gay/lesbian couples. I just refuse to call that marriage, and I think you’ll find that outside the liberal world, far more people agree with me than not.

    Perhaps we need to just decouple the civil vs. religious definitions of marriage. I believe France does that (Amy, this is your cue to impart some topical wisdom… ;-) — as I understand it, there you have to get the civil document, then you can have a religious ceremony if you want. Going back to the point of the discussion, we call the legal document a CU (or whatever), and open that up to any two people that want to show up at the county clerk’s office. As a practical matter, many gays probably would call that marriage — as would non-religious straights. But you don’t have the government deciding who’s “married” and who isn’t.

    Because hell will smash its new post-VT-to-ACC low temperature record the day an Alabama judge considers two men “married.” There’ll have to be a different term in order for the concept to gain widespread acceptance. Using the word marriage takes the level of support down — if not, why do you think even liberal Vermont’s law doesn’t call a CU marriage?

    Josh on July 31st, 2003 at 6:15 pm
  3. Well, you can’t have a “separate but equal” Civil Union equivalent of Marriage. Where have I heard “separate but equal” before? ;) Decoupling the civil from the religious makes good sense…those crazy French!

    Besides, a large number of people who get married/united in a church do so only out of tradition…theirs is still primarily a civil, not a religious union.

    If the language is the barrier (which it often is when people get their panties in a wad) then all marriages/civil unions between/among men/women/womyn/gays/lesbians/transgenders/animals/your Aunt Dorothy need to have one neutral name in the word of the law. You can call it whatever you want in your church or wherever else.

    Mike on August 2nd, 2003 at 7:25 pm
  4. So call it “Civil Union” and let the church decide marriage or not. Suffice to say: I agree with Josh.

    As for separate but equal: Separate and unequal is more accurate. Perhaps the primary reason for marriage is to safeguard the future of children of such a union. Definitely not equal, and for reasons of biology so give me any bullshit from my statement. Certainly they could adopt to have children, or in the case of two females, artificial insemination. However, we now have all kinds of new legal problems. Such as who gets what on divorce, including child custody.

    Finally, and most importantly to me: this is not the governments job. The government should not be defining words or giving them meaning. Nor should an amendment be passed to define marriage either. This is up to society as a whole (and perhaps webesters in particular). “Not the government’s job.”

    Let civil union be the jurisdiction of the government. Let all references in law, when reasonably possible, reference civil unions instead of marriage. New laws will need to be passed, existing laws modified. Let this have nothing to do with marriage.

    Let marriage be the jurisdiction of the church. Let churches decide for themselves who they are willing to marry together. Let this have nothing to do with civil unions.

    Optimally, law and morality should coincide. But given that there is considerable differences in what is considered moral, and what is not, the government needs to find a reasonable medium where such occurs. In this case, civil unions, with all rights and protections under the law of the United States of America would have to be satisfactory. Marriage, under God, will be determined by those churches or people who believe they discern God’s will. And if you disagree with what is being discerned as God’s will, start your own church. It’s been done often enough in the past.

    /rant

    Ach on August 8th, 2003 at 4:42 pm
  5. France has (at least?) three forms of couplage:

    Mariage is the most formalized/legally binding and is man-woman only.

    PACS (those crazy French and their acronyms… but I can’t remember what this stands for) is slightly less structured (they have fewer legal connections/protections, although I can’t remember what) can be homosexual but can also be heterosexual. I believe one difference between PACS and mariage has to do with the way assets are divided if the relationship ends… but I only studied the subject briefly, so don’t take my word for it.

    Union libre is essentially getting legal recognition that you are living with someone. I’m not sure what kind of rights/legal bonds it gives you.

    srah on August 22nd, 2003 at 12:33 am